[00:00:02.190] Hello Angie.

[00:00:06.060] Hello, David. How are you?

[00:00:07.210] Yes, and you? I’m fine. Welcome to our second Tête à Tête. Thank you, thank you for always having me. As part of our podcast, It’s the End of the Week. I don’t know if it’s translated. I don’t think they do. In any case, today it’s going to be a podcast in French. And then, that’s it, Eunji, you and me, we do these Têtes à Têtes. Sometimes, it’s in a restaurant. Today, it’s in a professional context. In fact, the concept of our tête-à-tête is: You have a question for me, I have a question for you, we answer it and that’s it. Here, for those of you who are wondering: You work together, you’ll need to know the same things. What do you mean, you have questions for each other? I think the reality is that we do work in the same environment, but we do have different backgrounds. My background is more in design, infrastructure and distribution center design. You, on the other hand, are a technology hard-liner.

[00:01:03.750] Technology, but I’m an industrial engineer.

[00:01:05.870] Industrial engineer.

[00:01:07.140] But yes, I’ve lived in warehouse technology all my life.

[00:01:11.080] Exactly. So that’s why I often have a question about technology for you and you have a question about operations for me. Yes.

[00:01:20.080] Okay. I have one on the tip of my tongue.

[00:01:21.990] Yes, it burns my lips.

[00:01:23.510] It burns my lips. Warehouses are increasingly automated. They’re easily integrated with WMS. But I’ve always wondered: how do you choose the right one? What guides you towards one type of technology or automation rather than another?

[00:01:41.760] The question is: obviously, the theme of automating operations in the distribution center is becoming increasingly important, and several technologies or systems exist. What do we need to consider to ultimately find the right one for our operations? Exactly. Okay, good question. In fact, it’s the very nature of many of our mandates. The answer is never simple, but I’ll try to maybe structure or qualify this a bit. So, first of all, we’re talking about automating activities. I think I’m going to focus specifically on unit picking, because you can automate unit picking, you can automate picking at the checkout, you can also automate pallet handling. But I think it’s relevant to talk about unit sampling. Obviously, e-commerce is one of the driving forces behind the fact that orders and order profiles are picked on a per-unit basis. And in this world of automation, we often hear the term goods to person. So where the links come to the person who prepares the order, versus more conventional operations where people move towards the products.

[00:03:11.590] But even in automation, we have certain systems where the person will still move towards the products, but will be assisted by robots, for example. So, even before classifying these types of system, this rise or interest or investment in the automation of activities, again comes from themes that we’re hearing, not more and more, but that we’ve been hearing for several years now, really revolving around the fact that we’re looking to increase the efficiency of our operations, so to be more productive, to be able to process a greater volume per unit hour. We also want to be able to make up for the shortage of manpower. Some tasks that are performed by humans, if we can have some of them performed or assisted by robots There’s that too. I’d say that the third point that supports the interest in these technologies is everything to do with well-being and ergonomics. Also, from an ergonomic point of view, automated systems will enable humans to work in a position that is perhaps a little more comfortable, so that heavy things don’t necessarily need to be handled too high or too low and so on.

[00:04:48.350] The next thing I’d say is when you think about freelancers again, you get orders, whether it’s in clothing or other consumer goods, whether it’s in groceries too. And the order may have one, two, three lines or one, two, three pieces. Or in grocery, it can be 20, 25, 30 pieces. And we have a lot of orders to process in a short space of time. So, what’s out there? I would classify There are like three types of technology. There’s one that was, I don’t want to say popularized by Amazon, but there was Kiva Systems that was bought by Amazon several years ago and now they only use it internally, which is a good 2 persons, so the products come to the people, but it’s really these robots that move shelves. You mean like this? Yes, just like that. Imagine a shelf that’s filled with products. There could be 40, 60, even over 100 products on that shelf. And the shelf is lifted by a robot, and the robot goes to a pick station where people pick orders.

[00:06:10.390] Now, there’s a type, another type, we’d call it ASRS, Automated Storage and Retrieval System, it’s called shuttals. Here, you can imagine systems where there are lots and lots of shelves filled with bins, and there are certain aisles in which there are I’ve just got the Anglicisms in my head, but skulls, robots, cranes practically that can walk around and pick up bins and then bring the bins to a pitcher station. Last but not least, and increasingly popular, are the AMRs, Autonomous Mobile Robots, which, ultimately, are the evolution of the AGV, which stands for automated guided vehicle. An automated guided vehicle was a robot that was guided by a wire in the ground or by mirror systems, and had to follow the same path all the time. In this case, the Autonomus Mobile Robot is a robot with built-in visual and sound sensors, enabling it to… Navigate. Yes, to navigate exactly through the layout. And this is a system that will assist order pickers where conventional layouts can quickly be imagined.

[00:07:37.860] So, we have aisles with shelves and the products are there. And people, instead, are going to walk through these shelves these ranges, but ultimately, there’s going to be a person and a robot are going to meet at a pig location. So, often, a robot will go to the location. The human will see, will be guided, that there’s a pick to go to, will put it in the robot. Afterwards, he can go and do another survey, but he doesn’t need to be accompanied by the robot. So, ultimately, these technologies enable us to reduce human travel time, which, as we know, is a major component of paid hours in a distribution center. I’d say we’re going to talk about these three types in your question. And again, the answer is, which is better? It’s a combination of what you said at the outset, the number of products you want to get out in a given amount of time.

[00:08:37.410] I haven’t said it yet. Oup là!

[00:08:38.850] Are you spying on my notes? No, but yes, that’s it. Exactly. When you look at these technologies, they can all fulfill the same mission, but they have different costs, and they have different flexibility. The first factor to consider is how much throughput to handle. Do I have a lot of small orders, or do I have a medium or even low volume? A system like the Shuttle, the ASRS, which is also one of the most expensive, but it’s also a system that will be able to It can get you out of it. Yes, because when we think about the goods-to-person system, we think in terms of presentation. Presentation by the minute or presentation by the hour. So how many products can be presented to the person who’s sampling for the sake of sampling. Again, how much work do I have to do in a certain amount of time? This will be one of the factors that will enable us to say whether all the systems can meet the needs, or whether some will be eliminated because they wouldn’t even be capable of reaching that speed.

[00:10:06.990] I realize that while I’m saying this, there’s another element I’ve forgotten, not one element, but another type of system that’s important to think about, and that’s the brand we know well, which is a forerunner in this field, and that’s the auto-store. You can imagine bins stacked on top of each other, with a grid. And then there are robots that can travel on two axes and pick up bins.

[00:10:35.050] Maybe dig it out, pick it up, bring it up.

[00:10:37.480] And potentially tamp it down to fetch others from underneath. So, there may be manipulations that are made sometimes that don’t serve to bring products to people who understand. But why do we stack products? Because it allows us to have a density that’s quite In fact, the densest system imaginable.

[00:10:57.120] You don’t have any space or aisles where the cranes need to move. Everything is piled one on top of the other, and then we dig for it. Yes.

[00:11:06.550] Then there are other companies, such as Tabotex, which will have versions of this system. Several companies have versions with varying densities and not configurations, but designs that vary, but the idea is the same. I’ve gone back in time to say that there were also this type of technology. When I come back to what we need to think about, these are systems, I’ll take the example of AutoStore, which isn’t the one that’s going to have the best throughput, but its advantage is precisely that it’s going to have a density that’s still impressive, or the best density we can find. So here again, are we installing? Are we considering installing automation in existing installations, or are we going to build according to the system? That’s a factor that can also influence which technology we’re going to look at. Cost is also a factor, obviously, depending on when you want to justify a project, to see what is justifiable in terms of investment in that particular technology. We’re also talking about

[00:12:28.940] I would say flexibility. Flexibility is quite a broad term. But then again, if we’re thinking about a development, I’ll give you an example. When we talk about a brownfield, we’re setting up operations in an existing building. You may have to deal with obstacles or less-than-ideal column spacing, as if you were building a distribution center on an empty lot. Yes, that’s it. Or at the end point, where do we have spacing, that we know is ideal. We could have We’re currently fitting out a building that used to be a production plant, where in this case, the configuration of the columns is much less important, because we don’t have to leave aisles unobstructed. We’re able to set up production lines around the columns. It’s the same here. If we have to deal with a layout or a building that’s not optimal for distribution, there are systems like auto-store or AMR that will enable us to minimize losses or minimize how far we are from an optimal layout because we’re able to take these systems and arrange them in a way that’s more flexible.

[00:13:59.350] Another point to consider is the single point of failure. So, sometimes, we have systems that represent that if they break or if there’s a problem at one point you, all of a sudden, you no longer have access to a huge amount of inventory. Versus others, if you think about AMR, that basically, I always have access to all my inventory.

[00:14:25.540] You tense the robots, then send in the humans.

[00:14:27.820] Yes, exactly. Or I have a portion of my fleet that isn’t capable of operating, but the rest is. Maybe my productivity will drop, but I’m not Stopped. Yes, stopped, exactly. And the last point to consider, and you can tell me more about this, is the technology integration aspect. In fact, in all the solutions we would put in place, it comes with a complexity of integration, obviously, as you know. I’d be inclined to… I’d almost put the question to you: through these different technologies, does the complexity of integration also vary or not? You could say that, essentially, this integration is similar whether I take system A, B, C or D.

[00:15:15.900] As far as I’m concerned, everything I’ve done with ID is very similar, where what you have to send to the robot, to the machine, to the ASRS, is a task. The WMS continues to do its inventory allocation algorithm to define where the best options are, the best areas to pick. On the other hand, when the WMS system makes the decision that it has to happen in ASRS, it sends its task. There are different formats for sending this task, but it always comes down to: I’m sending you a task. Once the robot, the machine, has processed the task, it reconfirms to me a completion, that the task is well completed, complete quantity, partial quantity, or finally, I haven’t found the product. It’s really binary: yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.

[00:16:02.750] I think we could say that, once again, in setting up an automated Pigeunetaires system, technological integration is extremely important and relatively complex, but not sufficiently different from one technology to another. Just to conclude or summarize, first of all, we need to see what part of our operation can be automated. And then, when we start looking at systems, do I need super high throughput? I’m going to look at certain technologies, perhaps more on the shuttle side. Or else, I have a throughput that can be handled by any of the existing systems. In that case, I may want to focus on what’s more important to me. Is it to be able to be in, to have, to use the smallest square foot possible. Or not, another advantage I forgot to mention in relation to AMR is that, in fact, these systems are much easier to move. Because AMR isn’t a system that’s anchored in our installations, but robots that move around. So if we think a little further into the future, and say I want to move, we know that this system can come with us, which is not the case with an SOS.

[00:17:29.560] Is it not moveable at all, or is it very complex to move?

[00:17:33.740] It’s just that It would be a complex project, but just the fact that we’d have to shut down our operations to be able to move, it’s not… I’ve never seen it. I’ve never seen it move a SIR. I’m not saying it’s never happened. That’s the analogy I’d use. Some people ask: Can I increase the height of my distribution center? Technically, yes, you can increase the billing. Who opens the… I’ve never seen it. I didn’t even answer your question, but I hope it guides a little how to think about it.

[00:18:09.550] We condense space, or we have a little more space. The height you just said. After, moving, also the number of true put, in the back, output flow, how many you need to have. Then I hadn’t thought about the aisles. I didn’t know that was the difference. I thought an auto blind was an A, S, R, S.

[00:18:28.550] Yes, it’s an R, S. R, S is a generic term that means I automate localization and retrieval. It’s just that, afterwards, I have different ways of doing it. Ok. But thank you very much. Thank you very much. I’ve got a question for you. I’ve got a question for you. I’ve got a question for you. You work in the world of WMS, but it’s a bit of a double question. What is Actually, I’m just going to look at it again because I wrote it in English. But yes, that’s it. With the customers you work with, what’s the biggest gap between the… How should I put this?

[00:19:13.860] Implementation reality versus what do they have?

[00:19:18.770] My term is misconception, right? In other words, they have certain expectations regarding the implementation of the WMS, and then there’s the reality. And when you come across this, where do you see that there’s a big gap between what they think it is and what it actually is?

[00:19:37.230] We quickly assume that learning software is easy. What’s more, they’re everywhere, we’ve got phones at our fingertips, so anyone can learn. But when you’re completely managing a business, a warehouse, actually, those who have simpler tasks, or whether it’s just picking up the product, putting it on the pallet, depositing it, there’s no time to take because it’s three questions. It’s always going to be: scan the location, enter the quantity, scan the pallet it goes on. Those are the repetitive tasks. But when it’s time to configure, plan and build loads, you have to learn how to use the software. The example I like to use all the time is that you don’t learn to pedal a two-wheeler overnight. We start with our four little holes, then at some point we take them out when we start to get used to them, then it takes a cut of times before. It depends on the parents. It depends on the parents.

[00:20:34.490] It depends on the method, but yes, we can say that we start with small holes.

[00:20:40.380] You fall, practice and come back. A lot of time is under-invested in testing the application. People think that testing means checking that the system works well, but testing comes with that functionality, but also learning how to use it, how to navigate through it. I can’t remember what I just scanned, because in testing, it’s a bit more abstract. Here, we’re not always in the warehouse doing tests. Looking for your license plate or label in the application is something you’re not going to be trained to do. On the other hand, you’re going to need it every day. Some people are going to come in and say: “Oh my God, I’ve torn my label, can you find it for me? And that’s what’s going to happen. Through testing, people will become more familiar with their solutions and master them more. And what that’s going to do for us is make it easier to go live. Because in any case, go live happens at the same time for everyone.

[00:21:37.770] If you haven’t taken the time to test, if you haven’t familiarized yourself with the operation, the system, on the go live, you have much less time to answer all your questions. This means that on D-day, the mountain you have to climb, to answer your team’s questions, to get the work done on the floor, is going to be much bigger, and is probably going to create slowdowns, and then there are probably orders that won’t come out right.

[00:22:02.900] If I may for the audience, just to I’m going to do this very quickly, but we say: OK, a company says: We’re going to implement an enterprise management system, a WMS. So, we’ve made the decision, it’s which one we’re going to implement, we’ve got our work teams. Then we say: OK, I have to define for each process how it’s going to work. Then, once that’s been approved, we configure the system. So, we’ll install it, we’ll do all the architecture. We make sure it works technically, but then we configure it according to what’s been approved. Then, once it’s been configured, we’ll do the testing and training. And after the training, we’ll say: OK, we’re ready, let’s go, we’re operating with our new systems. Then, what you’re saying is that many organizations that set up these systems say to themselves: That’s it, I’ll configure it. Once it’s configured, it’s going to work. We know what we’re going to do, we’ve configured it as we said, let’s go.

[00:23:04.767] But now you’re saying, it’s not important enough.

[00:23:08.010] Or again, it’s not that they’re not important enough, but that their expectations are high and we’re ready. But what you’re saying is: We’re rarely ready.

[00:23:15.040] We’re rarely ready. We don’t have the team in place, which is usually a team of super users. So, I’d say 20% of the staff in which you have, who will lead teams, who will assist, who will participate, who will pass. It’s a lot of one day a week trying to give each other examples, taking real cases of exception that happen in real life. Because when you don’t have the system or you have a simpler system, every time you have a question or a query, it’s often the brain that makes the decision. It’s a human thing to do. As soon as you put in rules or create computer rules or automated tasks, it follows a mathematical algorithm. If you haven’t tested it all, you thought it was like that, but afterwards, you realize that I don’t know, without meaning to, there are 50% of your products, you haven’t taken your length on the right way. You’re always going to end up with pallets that aren’t the right size. But the system does what it’s supposed to.

[00:24:13.345] It’s a data error that makes it come out all wrong.

[00:24:16.810] But if you didn’t test it when you had the opportunity, you’re just going to end up at the go live with either over-full pallets or half-empty pallets. Then, you’re just not going to be able to deliver your orders that day.

[00:24:28.690] It’s going to generate a lot of frustration. Yes. For me, the solution, which seems very simple to me, but which is certainly not always the case, is ultimately to say training, training, test, test, test, test, training, training, training. So how do you manage to get that message across when you’re still working with your customers? Because their expectations are: OK, let’s go. Then you say: No, no, time out, we need to allocate more time, we also need to That’s right, you have to allocate more…

[00:25:04.240] Depending on the type of customer, I have like three or four strategies. If I see that people are really disinterested, I block the next phase. We’re not going to start training as long as I’m putting the onus on our customer to show me that he understands the system. Otherwise, if we go too fast and the super-users don’t understand, it’s all very well showing a picker how it works. If the person doesn’t know how to release freelance tasks, the picker won’t be able to pick. That’s one of my options. Secondly, I use other customers who are already live, and whose operations are running smoothly. I say, “Could you have a little meeting with my client? It’s hard to understand the advantage of testing, of being involved in this period. It often helps to hear it from someone else who’s been there.

[00:25:51.230] Who had a success or maybe not a failure, but a more difficult goal.

[00:25:56.900] It realigns the chakras. Or often, it’s that people are so stretched in the work they have to do, that they want to do it, but they’re not liberated in their daily tasks. What I usually do is, I go to the stakeholder, then I tell them: fortunately, for your goalage to be on time and on budget, you have to free up your resources, otherwise you have to hire outside people or add more resources, because either way, you’re just rolling in butter. Nothing’s going to happen. That’s often what happens, that it lasts a little longer, a year or two. Then, in the end, it costs more to implement them all.

[00:26:39.660] Versus putting the investment in time and money up front. Yes. So, the ultimum, you’re there to protect them from themselves. Yes. Because often, we’ll assume that intentions are always good and that people are eager, but in fact, you’re there to protect them a little, so that they don’t take the next step too quickly.

[00:27:01.860] I try to guide as much as possible.

[00:27:04.100] After that, it’s up to the customer.

[00:27:05.560] After that, it’s always the customer who decides.

[00:27:07.980] Afterwards, it’s tricky to say: I told you so.

[00:27:10.880] Yes, we glide in a different way.

[00:27:13.590] Yes, it’s good. All right. Anything you’d like to add?

[00:27:17.310] No, that does it. Thanks for your question, very pertinent.

[00:27:21.390] Very pertinent. Thank you, Angie. Thank you, Angie. Can we get back to the tête-à-tête part 3 eventually?

[00:27:29.720] With pleasure.

[00:27:31.080] All right. Thanks, Angie. Good-bye, Angie.